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Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

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Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Cheney defends US 'torture' policy
Al Jazeera | May 22, 09

Nazi Torture

Dick Cheney, the former US vice-president, has defended the interrogation methods used by the Bush administration which have been widely condemned as torture, calling them "justified" and "essential".

Speaking minutes after Barack Obama, the US president, denounced the methods as being based on fear, he said: "They were legal, essential, justified, successful and the right thing to do."

"I was, and remain, a strong proponent of our enhanced interrogation programme," he told the American Enterprise Institute, of which he is a trustee, in Washington DC on Thursday.

"In my long experience in Washington, few matters have inspired so much contrived indignation and phony moralising as the interrogation methods applied to a few captured terrorists," he said.

He also defended the detention of "enemy combatants" in the Guantanamo Bay US prison camp in Cuba, and the use of harsh interrogation methods such as "waterboarding".

He said that the measures were driven by a need to prevent the 2001 September 11 attacks on the US by al-Qaeda, in which more than 3,000 people died, from becoming a prelude to even worse attacks.

'Danger and regret'

"The [Obama] administration has found that it's easy to receive applause in Europe for closing Guantánamo ... but it's tricky to come up with an alternative that will serve the interests of justice and America's national security," he said.

Cheney's speech came moments after Obama defended his policy decisions since taking power, including the promise to close the Guantanamo Bay camp by January 2010.

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Cheney criticised the decision as one made with "little deliberation and no plan", adding that the policy to bring the "worst terrorists" from the camp onto US soil would be a "cause for great danger and regret".

He called the move by Obama to end the Bush administration interrogation techniques "recklessness cloaked in righteousness."

James Boys, a professor of international political studies at the American International University in London, told Al Jazeera: "You have ... Dick Cheney talking about, and I quote him, 'a truthful re-telling of history'.

"Yet he went on to talk in a sentimental manner about the events of 9/11 as an attempt to justify all the events which occurred afterwards - talking about how, in the aftermath of the event ... the rest of the world was there supporting America.

"Where America's support suddenly fell away was not in the prosecution of a 'war on terror', but when those events of 9/11 were used to justify a pre-existing policy to forge regime change in Iraq."

*******************************************************************

 

Any Fucking Day Obama when you wanna start showing the People you have some resemblance of respect for the rule of law! Frustrated

 

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Such as showing those "memos" where it claimed that torture beared fruitful results....

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Re Closing Guantanamo

Quote:
Cheney criticised the decision as one made with "little deliberation and no plan",

At least this part is true as BO is showing the world now. It was an empty campaign promise to appease the masses. The problem with it is they have no where to send the prisoners. We don't want them here and other countries don't want them there.

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Boanerges wrote:
Re Closing Guantanamo
Quote:
Cheney criticised the decision as one made with "little deliberation and no plan",

At least this part is true as BO is showing the world now. It was an empty campaign promise to appease the masses. The problem with it is they have no where to send the prisoners. We don't want them here and other countries don't want them there.


Well actually charging them would be a start, don't you think? Zoolander Magnum Steel

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Sure

But then where are you going to try them?

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"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
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Boanerges wrote:
Sure

But then where are you going to try them?


If you don't charge them then let them go, there's a little something called the "Magna Carta" Eye-wink

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

In a court. How's that for a Boaner answer? Laughing out loud Laughing out loud Laughing out loud Laughing out loud Laughing out loud

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. But that's how you read, boan.

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I'd rendition them to, let's say... Liberia! Yeah, Liberia. Let them be waterboarded and confess to being enormous colostomy bags before they are put on trial for being human colostomy bags. Wait, is it against the law in Liberia to be a colostomy bag? Darn...

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The colostomy bags are the form of torture. Congrats! you just gave Dick a new idea!

Colostomy boarding!

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Interesting concept -

Quote:
(39)
No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.

Magna Carta

Wow, revolutionary concept isn't it? Maybe someone should incorporate a few concepts like these eh? Jerk Off

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Dude, that's sooooo 1215. Get with the times.

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Yep, they're trying to bring back the "Dark Ages" when religion and not logic ruled. It's easier to control the "Herd" when the "Edict" comes from "God". Puke

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Cheney's not God?

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All of that is well and good but to live up the Magna Carta standards (British Document that has no legal bearing on the United States, just for trivia) Several things have to be settled.

  1. Where are you going to try the prisoner? (US Court, International Court, Military tribunal)
  2. Under what authority are you going to try the prisoner? (US Law, International Law, Military customs)
  3. In the event they are let go without a trial, what are you going to do with them? (let them go in Guantanamo, bring them to the US, send them to their home countries)

It's real easy to shout Charge Them, Magna Carta, it quickly becomes complicated when reality is considered.
My idea. Try them at the Hague. If they are guilty, put them in prison, if not pack up and go home, leave them there to be free men.

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Boanerges wrote:
My idea. Try them at the Hague. If they are guilty, put them in prison, if not pack up and go home, leave them there to be free men.

I agree with the trial location in this case. I feel like the U.S. posture of ownership of this struggle has been horribly misguided and obviously the consequences are beyond our ability to pay.

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Boanerges wrote:
All of that is well and good but to live up the Magna Carta standards (British Document that has no legal bearing on the United States, just for trivia) Several things have to be settled.
  1. Where are you going to try the prisoner? (US Court, International Court, Military tribunal)
  2. Under what authority are you going to try the prisoner? (US Law, International Law, Military customs)
  3. In the event they are let go without a trial, what are you going to do with them? (let them go in Guantanamo, bring them to the US, send them to their home countries)

It's real easy to shout Charge Them, Magna Carta, it quickly becomes complicated when reality is considered.
My idea. Try them at the Hague. If they are guilty, put them in prison, if not pack up and go home, leave them there to be free men.

You seriously ought to do a bit of reading on what the Magna Carta is and what it has influenced "just for trivia" Jawdropping! Slap

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I understand it's influence, that is why I addressed it. However, legally, in this country it has no legal standing. You might as well be using the Bible as a reference, it has a big influence also!

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

We have one of two realistic choices with these detainees, send them home to their documented country of origin or be honest and charge them as prisoners of war. Oh I guess we would then have to actually declare a war properly and legally!

Pagan wrote:

Quote:
If you don't charge them then let them go, there's a little something called the "Magna Carta"

The Magna Carta is a centuries old document written for kings and noblemen. I see none of the players in this scenario as a king or nobleman.

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Boanerges wrote:
I understand it's influence, that is why I addressed it. However, legally, in this country it has no legal standing. You might as well be using the Bible as a reference, it has a big influence also!

Aaah not only is the Constitution heavily influenced by it but pretty much most laws in modern society is also heavily founded on it. If you know anything about law it's "precedence".

Not to mention it marked the point when we crawled out of the "Dark Ages"

As for your mention of the "bible", please .......

Quote:
Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address

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AstuteObserver wrote:
We have one of two realistic choices with these detainees, send them home to their documented country of origin or be honest and charge them as prisoners of war. Oh I guess we would then have to actually declare a war properly and legally!

Pagan wrote:

Quote:
If you don't charge them then let them go, there's a little something called the "Magna Carta"

The Magna Carta is a centuries old document written for kings and noblemen. I see none of the players in this scenario as a king or nobleman.


As I said to Boan, read the history of the Magna Carta and what has based itself off of it. Jawdropping!

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The point here is that the Magna Carta gives no one rights as related to the United States with just happens to be the country we live and the one that is holding people in Guantanamo.

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"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
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Boanerges wrote:
The point here is that the Magna Carta gives no one rights as related to the United States with just happens to be the country we live and the one that is holding people in Guantanamo.

It doesn't?

Quote:
For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law
-- Thomas Jefferson

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Common Law is based on it Boan, I suggest you read up about the Magna Carta and it's significance Eye-wink

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Pagan wrote:
Boanerges wrote:
The point here is that the Magna Carta gives no one rights as related to the United States with just happens to be the country we live and the one that is holding people in Guantanamo.

It doesn't?

Quote:
For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law
-- Thomas Jefferson

Quote:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

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From the National Archives -

Magna Carta

Quote:
In 1957 the American Bar Association acknowledged the debt American law and constitutionalism had to Magna Carta and English common law by erecting a monument at Runnymede. Yet, as close as Magna Carta and American concepts of liberty are, they remain distinct. Magna Carta is a charter of ancient liberties guaranteed by a king to his subjects; the Constitution of the United States is the establishment of a government by and for "We the People."

Magna Carta and Its American Legacy

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Boanerges wrote:
Pagan wrote:
Boanerges wrote:
The point here is that the Magna Carta gives no one rights as related to the United States with just happens to be the country we live and the one that is holding people in Guantanamo.

It doesn't?

Quote:
For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law
-- Thomas Jefferson

Quote:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

And were are a significant amount of influence come from?

Like I said I suggest reading up about the Magna Carta. You'll find that most of Western Common Law stems from it.

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Unless something has been legislated, the common law is the precedence for judicial action in this country. Yikes, but true. That's why we have laws about indecency, for example, being upheld in rather recent court cases in some places in this country. Laws are made and upheld in courts until the legislature initiates action on the matter. Common law is the law of the land in ways that could affect you before any of your constitutional rights are challenged.
I don't understand how Jefferson's quote supports the argument for common law being of present influence, because he claims the period of common law ends with the magna carta. Hmmmmm....
The magna carta is undoubtedly a charter for basic human rights upon which many modern theses (including our bill of rights) of human rights have been based. However, the distinction the Constitution makes is that rights are an endowment from our creators, not feudal lords. No one is refuting the importance of the magna carta, it's just that the Constitution supersedes all distinction of rights and laws as the supreme law of the land. Unless we sign a treaty or we are a spoiled rich kid or corporation or we are in debt to another country, then the Constitution is bumwipe. But only then!

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Fremen wrote:

The magna carta is undoubtedly a charter for basic human rights upon which many modern theses (including our bill of rights) of human rights have been based. However, the distinction the Constitution makes is that rights are an endowment from our creators, not feudal lords. No one is refuting the importance of the magna carta, it's just that the Constitution supersedes all distinction of rights and laws as the supreme law of the land. Unless we sign a treaty or we are a spoiled rich kid or corporation or we are in debt to another country, then the Constitution is bumwipe. But only then!

Exactly my point.

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Yes and if you look at my points is the Constitution and most of Western Law along with Democracy itself spawned off of it. The Magna Carta was a revolutionary document that established that no one is above the law. When it came about was the time Western Civiliazation started dragging itself out of the Dark Ages and into the Age of Enlightenment.

What Government and those in power are trying to do is pull us back into the Dark Ages where there was Absolute Rule!

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What is sad is that rights need to be protected at all.

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Fremen wrote:
What is sad is that rights need to be protected at all.

That's just the law of the jungle, laws and the equal adherence to the law is the only thing that differentiates society from the jungle Eye-wink

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Quote:
Exactly my point.

What (exactly) is your point, boan?

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Mysandrist Fool wrote:
Quote:
Exactly my point.

What is your point, boan?

Did you read the quoted passage from Fremen? My point is that while the Magna Carta has notable influence on our governing documents, it has no bearing on this case. Or any other in the United States in modern day.

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I meant your point on your postings on this thread.

And having a bearing on governing documents does influence how this case should be handled anyway.

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Boanerges wrote:
Mysandrist Fool wrote:
Quote:
Exactly my point.

What is your point, boan?

Did you read the quoted passage from Fremen? My point is that while the Magna Carta has notable influence on our governing documents, it has no bearing on this case. Or any other in the United States in modern day.


OK if you say so Boaner, the origins of the Constitution have no bearing Jerk Off

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Stand up in a court and claim your rights according to the Magna Carta Jerk Off

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Stand up in a court and claim your rights according to the Magna Carta :rub:

Ah you might wanna check the context on the Magna Carta in this thread Dude.

Besides it has, where do you think the Writ of Habeas Corpus comes from? Jerk Off

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Pagan wrote:
Boanerges wrote:
Stand up in a court and claim your rights according to the Magna Carta Jerk Off

Ah you might wanna check the context on the Magna Carta in this thread Dude.

Besides it has, where do you think the Writ of Habeas Corpus comes from? Jerk Off



Of that I have no doubt, however the detainees have no claim under the Magna Carta. Agreed?

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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I believe all people have protection under the Constitution when dealing with the U.S., because that's how the U.S. has manifested human rights. It is how we agree to perceive humanity made into law. To treat folks differently is patently unConstitutional. We are then not living up to our own ideals and the hypocrisy is rampantly obvious outside of our borders when exploitation that we don't even know about happens in our name. NOW, with the hypocrisy blatantly happening within our borders as well as without, we are supposed to just take it? There's no excuse, no more head in the sand possible. It's in our face - welcome to shock and awe, phase two.

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Still waiting for your points on your original post, boaner.

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I have to say that this back and forth isn't constructive, MF. Boanerges doesn't need me to speak for him, but the point that I saw him make is that the Magna Carta is a foundation of human rights, but doesn't have any bearing in Curia. It certainly has a philosophical precedence and could potentially influence common law proceedings or juries, but I doubt a judge would consider the material weight of the Magna Carta over Constitutional writ in court.

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I'm well past that and wish to get out of left field. I'm simply asking him what the point of his posting the flagship article of this thread was?

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Fremen wrote:
I have to say that this back and forth isn't constructive, MF. Boanerges doesn't need me to speak for him, but the point that I saw him make is that the Magna Carta is a foundation of human rights, but doesn't have any bearing in Curia. It certainly has a philosophical precedence and could potentially influence common law proceedings or juries, but I doubt a judge would consider the material weight of the Magna Carta over Constitutional writ in court.

It's used quite often since law is all about "presidence"
Supreme Court restores habeas corpus, strikes down key part of Military Commissions Act

Quote:
The Court's ruling was grounded in its recognition that the guarantee of habeas corpus was so central to the Founding that it was one of the few individual rights included in the Constitution even before the Bill of Rights was enacted. As the Court put it: "the Framers viewed freedom from unlawful restraint as a fundamental precept of liberty, and they understood the writ of habeas corpus as a vital instrument to secure that freedom." The Court noted that freedom from arbitrary or baseless imprisonment was one of the core rights established by the 13th Century Magna Carta, and it is the writ of habeas corpus which is the means for enforcing that right. Once habeas corpus is abolished -- as the Military Commissions Act sought to do -- then we return to the pre-Magna Carta days where the Government is free to imprison people with no recourse.

 

So seriously folks, to understand where something is at one must also understand where it comes from. Like I said the legal system is all about presidence.

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

I can't say that I could disagree with that, even though there are those who would dismiss it just because of the time elapsed. The precedence was set from this document and has developed along those lines for quite some time now.

As for Boan's point on the purpose posting the flagship article, I'm still waiting......

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Mysandrist Fool wrote:
I can't say that I could disagree with that, even though there are those who would dismiss it just because of the time elapsed. The precedence was set from this document and has developed along those lines for quite some time now.

As for Boan's point on the purpose posting the flagship article, I'm still waiting......


Why do you think he's been spinning this? Eye-wink

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Mysandrist Fool wrote:
I'm well past that and wish to get out of left field. I'm simply asking him what the point of his posting the flagship article of this thread was?

Ummm...I didn't post the article, Pagan Did.

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Pagan wrote:

It's used quite often since law is all about "presidence"
Supreme Court restores habeas corpus, strikes down key part of Military Commissions Act

Quote:
The Court's ruling was grounded in its recognition that the guarantee of habeas corpus was so central to the Founding that it was one of the few individual rights included in the Constitution even before the Bill of Rights was enacted. As the Court put it: "the Framers viewed freedom from unlawful restraint as a fundamental precept of liberty, and they understood the writ of habeas corpus as a vital instrument to secure that freedom." The Court noted that freedom from arbitrary or baseless imprisonment was one of the core rights established by the 13th Century Magna Carta, and it is the writ of habeas corpus which is the means for enforcing that right. Once habeas corpus is abolished -- as the Military Commissions Act sought to do -- then we return to the pre-Magna Carta days where the Government is free to imprison people with no recourse.

 

So seriously folks, to understand where something is at one must also understand where it comes from. Like I said the legal system is all about presidence.



You are using a reference to the Magna Carta and claiming it as precedence in a case. That is just not true. The Justices here refer to the Magna Carta as creating habeas corpus. (Which it essentially did)and to say if habeas corpus is ignored we digress into the 13th century (Which only makes sense if the Magna Carta created the concept) HOWEVER they are very clear that their ruling comes from the CONSTITUTION. Why you ask? Because the Magna Carta has NO LEGAL STANDNG IN THIS COUNTRY.

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Boanerges wrote:
Pagan wrote:

It's used quite often since law is all about "presidence"
Supreme Court restores habeas corpus, strikes down key part of Military Commissions Act

Quote:
The Court's ruling was grounded in its recognition that the guarantee of habeas corpus was so central to the Founding that it was one of the few individual rights included in the Constitution even before the Bill of Rights was enacted. As the Court put it: "the Framers viewed freedom from unlawful restraint as a fundamental precept of liberty, and they understood the writ of habeas corpus as a vital instrument to secure that freedom." The Court noted that freedom from arbitrary or baseless imprisonment was one of the core rights established by the 13th Century Magna Carta, and it is the writ of habeas corpus which is the means for enforcing that right. Once habeas corpus is abolished -- as the Military Commissions Act sought to do -- then we return to the pre-Magna Carta days where the Government is free to imprison people with no recourse.

 

So seriously folks, to understand where something is at one must also understand where it comes from. Like I said the legal system is all about presidence.



You are using a reference to the Magna Carta and claiming it as precedence in a case. That is just not true. The Justices here refer to the Magna Carta as creating habeas corpus. (Which it essentially did)and to say if habeas corpus is ignored we digress into the 13th century (Which only makes sense if the Magna Carta created the concept) HOWEVER they are very clear that their ruling comes from the CONSTITUTION. Why you ask? Because the Magna Carta has NO LEGAL STANDNG IN THIS COUNTRY.

What ever you say Boaner, that's why the SCOTUS, Law Schools, Courts etc. refer to numerous times because it has no standing eh? Jerk Off

I guess being a source document that Western Law and Democracies means it has as you state "no legal standing" Jerk Off

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Is Not.

(Now you say "Is to") We'll accomplish the same thing and not have to do all that quoting and linking.

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Boanerges wrote:
Is Not.

(Now you say "Is to") We'll accomplish the same thing and not have to do all that quoting and linking.


Fire Hydrant Jerk Off Fire Hydrant

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Re: Cheney Expounding the Virtues of Torture

Is not

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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